Of cabbages and kings....Or, On Christian Fundamentalists: Man do they bug me!

Tonight I decided to post an interesting conversation I had on instant messenger with one of my dearest friends, whom I'll call Chaya for the sake of this post. I was just soooo fuming stinking mad after reading this stuff that she showed me that I couldn't help but share it. I usually try to be as accepting as possible of other faiths/religions/spiritual paths/lifestyles, but this is just ridiculous...And people wonder why I turned away from Christianity!!!! (Not that I was raised in this kind of Christianity, but you get my drift)...

Note: Some of the language maybe be somewhat offensive to some people, although I don't think it would be considered inappropriate (no cussing or anything). Please keep in mind that this was a conversation between myself and a friend and we were both having very heated reactions to the information we were discovering...

With that said, please enjoy and feel free to add you thoughts and opinions in the comments section!

Chaya: OMG
Chaya: crazy fundie alert
Hila: lol
Hila: wha?
Chaya: http://www.createdtobehishelpmeet.org/
Chaya: also check out this bit of pious wifely duty: http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=75&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=81&tx_ttnews[backPid]=72&cHash=9044220656
Hila: WTF i can just tell from the URL that its fundie
Chaya: hahahhahahaha
Chaya: read that second link. itll blow your mind
Hila: lol
Hila: ok im on it right now
Chaya: the last page is the "best"
Hila: hahah i am waiting for it
Hila: God Hates DIVORCE
Hila: *yikes*
Chaya: more than beating people and raping kids, apparently!
Hila: yup
Hila: and you know what, this wackjob is SOOO wrong
Chaya: im so glad i dont worship that "god"
Hila: yeah no s***
Hila: i mean, divorce in Judaism is perfectly legal
Hila: in fact, husbands HAVE to grant a divorce to their wives if in any way they violate the ketubah (the marriage contract)
Hila: and this is just in a religious context, we're not talking civil
Chaya: right
Chaya: you knwo what i hate about christianity?
Chaya: notice how all the bible they quote is corinthians, romans, etc
Hila: umm i can think of lots of things
Chaya: why should i give a s*** what paul had to say?
Hila: yeah the occasional matthew, mark, luke, john
Hila: why is his word GOSPEL more than any other disciple of jesus over the past 2000 years
Hila: but rare....always corinthians and romans,
Chaya: i thought the gospel was supposed to be frickin jesus
Hila: i did too
Hila: um, maybe paul was really jesus? :-P
Chaya: romans is the one they pull out for the gay bashing, theres one about laying with another man or something
Hila: well its in leviticus ch. 18
Chaya: obviously paul is more important than jesus, he has like 10 books compared to 4
Hila: which is old testament
Chaya: yeah, theres leviticus and romans
Hila: but they fail to quote that because they REFUSE to follow the old testament, unless it suits them
Hila: thats another thing that doesnt make sense
Chaya: but leviticus, well when thees people start refusing to wear clothing made of mixed cloth, and when they keep kosher, ill take them seriously
Hila: they want to include the Old Testament in the "Bible" but refuse to follow it unless it fits their needs...Yeah no kidding! Thats what i was abotu to say!
Chaya: until then theyre just picking and choosing so they can justify hating gay people
Hila: exactly
Hila: there have even been many rabbis who have said that the translation of the words in hebrew in the sentence from Leviticus "Thou shalt not lie with another man as with a woman, it is an abomination/abhorrence" really is not meant to be taken so seriously
Hila: like, its not good because you cant produce children and therefore you're not fulfilling Gods will to the fullest extent, but it doesnt mean that you will be struck down by lightning
Chaya: right... and honestly, is the need to produce children in our civilization as pressing as it was for an ancient civilization that depended on kids for labor and population?
Hila: nope
Hila: and thats another point of judaism---a bit of a conflict amongst orthodox /conservative/reform jews
Hila: but still most jews have realize that our world is over populated as it is
Hila: the main reason ortho families have so many kids is because of the dying Jewish population, not so much because they want to populate the world
Hila: but you know what i mean
Chaya: right
Chaya: yeah and i understand that, but its not like its like "you are a sinner if you dont have 10 kids" like fundies are
Chaya: because its "what god wants"
Chaya: wow: But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution.
Hila: ugh see i just closed the page because i couldnt read any more
Hila: i didnt even get that far
Hila: but now i have to read it for myself!
Chaya: thats definitely the worst... theres also advice if you are physically abused. the trick is to be a doormat, and loving and not punish your man so that his heart will be warmed by how loving you are towards him
Chaya: If your abusing husband fully understands that you have the power of the law behind you, he will learn to keep his hands in his pockets. I am not suggesting you do this to be vindictive or to get even with him. It must be done in humility and love. If your husbands knows that you are the weaker vessel, desperately seeking your survival and that of the kids, and that you are not trying to punish him, but that you are going to stand by and continue to love him, that you are going to wait for him to get out of prison and then try to start over again, it may move his heart to fear if not to repentance.
Hila: OMFG
Hila: SERIOUSLY I like want to report this it is soooooooo vile
Hila: I dont know who I would report it to but DAMN
Chaya: i know. what they are advocating is illegal... the part about forgiving your molesting husband because god wants you to... its a felony to knowingly expose kids to a sexual predator
Chaya: this same site has child rearing "advice" which pretty much consists of beating the kids into submission
Chaya: i heard that they had to wait until the kids were adults to publish it for fear of PROSECUCTION
Hila: where did you hear that? i mean abotu the waiting till the kids were adults---and what kids? their own?
Chaya: i think so. someone on my blog said that so i have no corroboration for that statement
Hila: hmmm interesting
Hila: where's the beating part LOL
Hila: these people should be turned into the police
Chaya: http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=35
Chaya: The following article is designed to be used as a resource in defending your faith on Biblical child training. If the Federal or State agencies take me to court over advocating corporal chastisement, this will be part of my defense.
Hila: WTF!!!!!!!!!!
Hila: Oh dear GOD!!!
Hila: who the hell can we tell about this---seriously i want to vomit even more now!
Chaya: i know. the sucky thing about the internet is its not within state boundaries.... i dunno where these wackf***s live, i assume someone has reported them... and im not sure of the law here. i am not sure if writing a book advocating child abuse is illegal, or if youd actually have to have evidence of a real life kid who is abused
Hila: yeah it blows.....grrr, ok, there they go again f****** quoting the Old Testament only when it suits them
Hila: let me tell you, Jewish parents DO NOT HIT THEIR CHILDREN
Chaya: oh god, im sure not
Hila: Maybe in some cases
Chaya: this seems to be a fundy xtian phenomenon
Chaya: i mean im sure some have but not because they thought gawd was telling them to


And that's where I'll leave off with that. Again, I'm sorry to any of you who are offended, or who do not agree with my interpretation/representation of Jewish beliefs. But it's my blog. I can say what I want. Gotta love the internet :-)

Fighting Fundies since 1984

Ok, so to preface this post, I want to turn your attention to the illustrious Fred Phelps, if you haven't already heard of him. His various websites include www.godhatesfags.com, godhatesamerica.com, and godhatessweden.com. This man is BEYOND what I affectionately call "fundie" principles. The following is an email that I sent to the "Westboro Baptist Church" I put the title in quotes because, as far as I know, no real church of any kind would support the kind of hatemongering whackjob beliefs that Phelps and his family's "church" preach. Please note that much of this e-mail is intentionally tongue-in-cheek. Enjoy.

Hello.

I am a Swedish Jew. And a woman. So yes, I know, I'm going to hell,
according to your principles. I am curious, however, who is NOT going
to hell, then? If I am correct, according to what I have found at your
site, the following kinds of people are going to hell:

Gays/Lesbians
Americans


Now, if we expand that and look at it further, we see that that pretty
much leaves no one except for members of the Westboro Baptist Church
who are going to heaven, because the reason Americans are going to
hell is because they live in a country that supports gays, which are
considered an abomination according to the Bible. So, we can infer
then that non-believers are also going to hell, which would include
anyone who does not strictly adhere to the doctrine of Fred Phelps
and/or the Westboro Baptist Church. Therefore we can safely assume
that all peoples of other religions/beliefs, even within Protestant
Christianity, are doomed to the fiery depths of hell. This would mean
that approximately 4.4 billion people (at least) are most assuredly
going to hell (this is based on my research of how many people
identify with various belief systems throughout the world.
Christianity in all its variations comes in with around 1.6 billion
followers worldwide).Am I correct so far?

So, another question I have is, if you hate gays and America, in turn,
for "supporting" gays, then why are you still here? I mean, it's a
free country, after all---you can leave at any time and I'm sure no
one will mind too much. Now don't get me wrong, I am all for you
having your right to free speech---so I'm not about to tell you to
shut up. I really could care less, you see. I'm just curious. I mean,
America is basically an abyss of perverted nutjob sinners, so why
stay? How about Canada? You could move to Russia, too,
perhaps--Siberia is pretty deserted so there's no risk of crazy
fag-lovers there!

Oh, and about your stance on "Bloody Butcher Bush": shouldn't you be
praising him? I mean, your site clearly states that you wish the
numbers of dead soldiers in Iraq were exponentially higher than they
currently are, so shouldn't you be thanking Bush for sending the evil
fag perverts over to get killed? Call me crazy but I'd be dancing
around a bonfire chanting his name if I were you. Alas, I'm just a
stupid Swedish Jewish woman. What would I know?

Sincerely,

A tree-hugging-liberal-feminist-queer
ally-troop-supporting-America-loving-Swedish-Jewish-patriotic-flag-waving-WOMAN

Oh Fundamentalists/Extremists...How I LOATHE thee!

UPDATE:
Editor's Note: I have changed some of this post because I realized that I was being unfairly critical and not keeping in mind that there are indeed fundamentalists and extremists in every religion (at least the 3 "major" ones). Since this post I have written about my distaste for Christian fundamentalism and extremism, but I have yet to work up anything about Judaism. Don't worry, though, I've been gathering some great material, and I'll be scribbling something down pretty soon here.

Wow. Words cannot even begin to describe how appalled I am by this article (click on the title of the post)!!! Now before someone jumps down my throat accusing me of being a Muslim-hater, just hold on to your socks there, folks, and let me explain. I don't approve of fundamentalism, in any form. I strongly dislike Christian fundamentalists (see November archives). I am also very much against Jewish fundamentalism. I don't think that any time where people go beyond logic and reason and try to impose their idiotic beliefs on others can be considered righteous or moral, regardless of the faith I choose to follow or which faith issues the decree. I value all religions and all faiths, even if I do not hold the same views that they do. I also respect people first and foremost for what they are, humans. Shocker, huh? Yeah, I know...

So before anyone sends me hate mail, please note that I will be posting more of my opinions on all kinds of fundamentalism whenever I come across it. All in good time, folks, all in good time.


Original Post:
(I am keeping the following here because I feel that it is appropriate material for those who are unaware of what the main views of women are within Orthodox Judaism. Of course, this is not the fundamentalist viewpoint, which as I said above, I'll get to sometime soon.)
In Judaism, women are beloved. They are mothers, wives, sisters, and daughters who are cherished and protected. Some might think that they are not viewed as such because they do not understand the halacha regarding issues of tznius (modesty--in dress, conduct, and thought) and about why men and women are separated in shul (synagogue), why women don't participate in leading services/read Torah, etc. Of course, to someone on the outside, this all would seem anti-feminist in a way, but it is far from anti-women at all.

Judaism tells us that there are separate roles for men and women, and respects both of these roles deeply and equally. It recognizes that the Jewish mother is the pinnacle of the family, she is the center around which her family's world turns. She is not a piece of meat to be abused, mistreated, and degraded. She is not to blame for someone else's actions. Tznius requires modesty in both men and women, and it is ultimately the fault of the person who commits a crime (such as rape) and not the victim "just because she wasn't dressed modestly."

As someone who is very involved in the anti-rape and domestic violence awareness movement, this kind of article appalls me because it suggests that the reason men rape is because of sexual attraction to women that they cannot control. This is so far from untrue that it is almost laughable! Rape (sexual assault, if you prefer) is a crime of power and control. It has nothing to do with sex, except that sexual parts of the body are used as a medium to commit a crime. Women who are dressed provocatively are not at fault if they are raped. Nothing anyone does is a rape-able offense. We can't "make" people hit us, nor can we "make" someone rape.

I know it seems easier for us as a society to blame victims for something terrible happening to them, but to blame a person who has been raped really puts us at risk because we choose to believe that we can prevent rape. The sad truth is that we cannot prevent rape unless rapists stop raping. We need to stop trying to educate women about how to protect ourselves against predators who choose to take advantage of them, and start teaching our sons to be accountable, respectable men who respect women and do not objectify them (hmmm maybe we should just make them all live in Jewish homes??? hahaha)

Look at it this way: we wouldn't DARE blame the victims of terrorist attacks for going about their daily lives and "being in the wrong place at the wrong time," so WHY do we blame victims of rape for what someone else chose to do to them?!?!?!?


Just something to think about...